It is 9:25 PM election night, I am damn glad and proud Tom Potter is without question our new mayor, I am glad that David WU, beat the negative ads of Goli Ameri, I can't believe people would vote on 36: yes....but it is close so there is hope....34 and 37 are so far very surprising...and glad to see at least so far Kerry is winning in Oregon. Too much Sake.

Well, it is good to see that we stand a chance of getting some Supreme Court judges who may actually interpret the law rather than legislating from the bench. That, to me, is the best thing about the results. Long live the separation of powers.

I think it is very interesting that given the importance of the "battleground" states, that apparently of the networks are in either Florida or Ohio. Does that seem just a bit odd to anyone?

Bushrod, I am not in the mood. If you think that Bush supports the separation of powers then you are looking at some other administration than I am. If you think that Bush & Co. don't have an agenda with the courts that is farm from what you say you think the courts are about, then you should look again. It is clear, and it has been clear from the week that Bush enetered the Whitehouse that the intent was to consolidate all power under the president, and to do as much as possible in secret.

You look at the record, and if you still think this is an administration that believes in the separation of powers I will be amazed.

As an Oregonian, I was saddened to see that 36 passed, while 34 didn't and 37 did. Three bad, bad things. I'm trying not to be downhearted by the media spinmeisters who are trying, yet again, to convince us all that Kerry lost when we're still far from knowing.

I was STUNNED by Measure 36. Almost more disappointed by the results of that issue than anything else so far. I can't think of any reason why a person would find it necessary to interject themselves in another's right to choose who they love, and what rights they are conferred based on the sexual orientation of a couple. Bushrod, since you are so astute and in tune to the true nuances of being a Supreme Court judge, perhaps you'll be nominated? Perhaps you should run a seminar where you can explain to these learned men of relatively esteemed credentials just how to interpret law.

I respect Rowan too much to say what I'd like to say to you at the moment.

On a positive note, I can see being in Oregon is the only place for me right now. Republicans were roundly defeated in every important race--including the Presidency!

According to reports, Kerry has called and conceded the election. I can't believe that he did that, but he did. Meanwhile while estimate show Bush with a 3+ million popular vote lead (also having problems finding credibility in that) there are over 10 million absentee ballots that have not been counted. Another tidbit of depressing news - it is being reported that only 17% of the youth vote turned out.

In the insurance business they have a saying when a client is reluctant to sign up for life insurance: "You gotta back up the hearse and let "em smell the roses" meaning you scrare them into submission by bring up images of the hearse....fear is a powerful motivator.

STRAIGHT BUT NOT STUPID: I am actually shocked at at 36, for the life of me I don't understand what people are afraid of,!

I gave up last night around 10:00 PM a dangerous combination of sake and frustration....I knew this was going to be a strange time...but I did have a glimmer of hope with a large turnout..

My hangover is purely intellectual this morning ... and for the first time here, I'm going to have a small rant.

The right may be celebrating, but numbers don't lie, and this is a country seriously divided. The Bible belt prevailed, and (believe it or not) Chris Matthews stated it well this morning, they did so (voted) based on "not analysis, but belief."

We haven't even reached an intellectual state of enlightenment (something the rest of the world has done hundreds of years ago) in middle America. A good portion of the interior of this country sits in an intellectual, cultural, and societal Dark Ages. NO ANALYSIS.

No wonder Bush pushes programs like No Child Left Behind, and the concept of the privitization of schools (meaning relgiously-based schools), it's truly a panopticon concept. Watch, train, discipline the masses, and like sheep they will follow the great, white leader. Statistics showed that the majority of Bush's base still believe there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq!?!? I don't think anyone should minimize the core of this narrow win: Those ruled by fear (of an enemy, of God, of the Other), those who believe that their way is the ONLY way, united in a ferocious way, and the world will read that for what it is. We are presenting ourselves as a rigid, fundamentalist nation.

Bushco won a lot of those races on a narrow margin, though. And no one should take that for granted. Since money talks, let's look to that "family values" base to figure out how to pay off that nice growing deficity Bush is building. To figure out what country to "liberate" in order to enhance our resource and strategic bases.

But if we continue to question and expose, this country has GOT to wake up! As for the Democrats, who insist on being rational and safe, I would suggest that they need to define themselves as something other than liberal Repubicans.

Sheesh, I can't imagine what else could have been exposed about this President that might have made the interior question his leadership ... oh wait, I guess if he would have had a "Monica" incident, THAT would be a call to impeach.

We are one Puritanical country. :-(

My resolve is to get behind the Green Party, I registered as a Democrat for the first time since 1968 for this election...if I am going to lose I prefer to lose for a party that I have no misgivings about whatsoever. Ralph Nader is and will always be a hero in my eyes and last night his speech was absolutley inspiring. I voted for Kerry/Edwards this time, but for the next four years what little money I have and time will both go to the Green Party.

Perhaps we can have an impact on a local level.

The only thing I am happy about today is Tom Potter!

I am so angry at Kerry right now. Although I shouldn't be surprised that he conceded since he's been nothing if not cowardly ever since he joined the race.
This does not feel like my country. I am inhabiting a foreign land. I'm merely a citizen by birth and that breaks my heart.
-Erika.

I have been wondering for a long time now...there is a giant division between the values of the Democrats' corporate base, and the values of Democratic voters. Consequently their position is actually more comfortable and tenable when they're the opposition party; if the Republicans have the house, the senate, and the presidency, the Democrats don't need to decide whether to enrage their corporate backers or disappoint their voters. And I wonder whether some of them have already figured this out.

(When forced to make the decision they pick "disappoint voters" reliably...NAFTA is one example.)

-Daniel.

I live in Washington now, so I did not get to vote on the issues in Oregon. I am disappointed in the attitudes of the homophobics in this nation as a whole. I think we have more important things to worry about than who loves who. I personally do not believe it is anybody's business. I don't want politics in the middle of my relationships. I see no reason why politics should have anything to do with anyone else's relationships either. Biblically, you reap what you sow. Those who sow self righteous judgment will get theirs someday.
I am not sure I should say this here, but to Rowan (and Kelly), I think very highly of you. I admire your strength and courage to tell it like it is. You have taught me a lot in the past (in class and way beyond)and continue to teach me here. From what you have shared in relation to Kelly, she appears also to be a very compassionate, knowledgable person. Discrimination against someone as special as the two of you should be considered more sinful than the crimes you are accused of. I am not certain that this is any consolation in light of all the prejudice and persecution, but I hope knowing that you have friends that respect you will give you some peace of mind.

As for Bush and Co, I am concerned. It appears absentee ballots are being questioned and voters are being chased away at the polls for a variety of reasons including not having 'acceptable' identification. It looks like there is some gerrymandering going on as well. Like I said before, I don't suppose Mr. Bush could win an election honestly. He must cheat and make fools out of the American people. It is my guess that our president will be decided by the same Supreme Court Judges that were appointed by our current administration. No doubt who they will choose, hmmm?
In reading the BBC News, I notice Europe is paying close attention to this election. They, too, are concerned. In reading comments left by those from all over the world, the majority appear to fear the possible election of Mr. Bush and his cronies. It appears that they are also aware of the "cheating" going on as far as the voting process is concerned. It amazes me how much our administration affects the rest of the world.

Personally, a global catastrophe does not sound so bad right now. It would knock any administration on its a--, and we would be forced to start all over again. I think it will take a total overhaul globally speaking to repair the damage done to the environment, people's lives and even out the equations among peoples. Yes, we would have new problems to solve, but they would be problems we as people have to solve ourselves; not ones meddled with by people who only seek their own self interest. Current political problems would be obliterated as the pampered privileged probably would not survive in a freezing natural environment without electricity.

I have to go back now and state an opinion on the concession Mr. Kerry. I hadn't realized the latest development until now and what it meant. Now with that said...

This really f---n sucks! This is not just a defeat of a coward; this is the defeat of America. So much for ending the death in Iraq and bringing home our people.

I think I am in such a disappointed state that I will have to comment later. I must turn the television off. I have no interest in Mr. Bush's victory celebration and the proposed damage he has in store for the next four years.

Thanks Shawna for the kind words and support.

The comments on this thread clearly show the problem with American politics today no matter what stripes you wear. I have seen campaigns for Jr High President and Student Council run with more maturity and class than what I have seen from the Bush and Kerry campaigns in this past year. Republicans accusing Democrats of dirty tricks, performing dirty tricks, and vice versa. What happened to letting people be part of the political process without name calling or trying to start a physical fight in front of polling places? Like I said before, I would expect this type of behavior in the halls of a Jr. High School from teenagers, but not on the streets and halls of our great nation among mature adults.

Over forty years ago, there were people who put their lives on the line in a hostile environment so that they and other people who were disenfranchised could have the right to choose the leaders of this great nation. The environment in question was not in the jungles of Vietnam, the sands of Iraq, or the beaches on Normandy. The environment was in our own backyard in places such as Selma Alabama, Biloxi, Mississippi, and Atlanta Georgia. And to think we have come to this immature behavior forty years after Dr. King's dream came true with the passage of the Voting Rights act. More like Dr. King's nightmare to me. Both liberals and conservatives should be ashamed at their own behaviors and actions. We have now created an environment of "Fear and Loathing" (apologies to Dr. Hunter S. Thompson) when it come to American politics and the whole political process. And we wonder why the nation is so divided? No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. I really don't care if your name is Bush, Kerry, or Nader. We all played a part in this fiasco and divisiveness and we need to find out where we want to go from here in a hurry.

Six years ago, I voted my conscience in my state's gubernatorial election. Despite much ridicule from members of both major parties, I decided to vote for Jesse Ventura for my governor because I was sick and tired of the elitist attitudes of both Republicans and Democrats in my state and across the nation. Even though I found out later that Jesse used the office to further his Hollywood and WWE career, I take responsibility for my choice and if I had to do it over again, I would vote for him in a heartbeat. The admirable thing about Jesse was that he spoke his mind even if he was a little "off the cuff" and not so statesmanlike in his demeanor. What both parties fail to realize is that they need to find a way to relate to people better rather than treat us like children. Although Ventura did some idiotic things in office, I resented the fact that I was being stereotyped as an idiot and simpleton for voting for him by the condescending party elites and their supporters. Don't blame me for exercising my constitutional right to vote because your candidate has a lot of shortcomings. It is their responsibility to sell themselves to us, not the other way around.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I feel nothing is going to be resolved in the next four years despite last night's outcome. I hate to be a pessimist but if you are going to try to encourage people to participate in the political process, then there needs to be some more civility involved rather than the childish shenanigans that both parties employ to gain an power advantage. This is a message to both liberals and conservatives. GROW UP, PLEASE! For God's sake, inherit some tact and civility. You know, Lincoln and Douglas had a sense of decency and decorum when they debated the issues among one another in Illinois back in 1858. We once had that kind of civil debate in our country and folks, we can still have that today if we can just get over the petty crap about who did what in Vietnam 35 years ago and who slept with whom. Otherwise, the dust, the rubble, and the ruins from a once great nation will be solely on your hands.

And finally, I leave you liberals and conservatives with this quote from Thomas Jefferson because this sums up my feelings about this whole campaign season, the entire political process, and the elites that control it.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man"

One Disgusted Patriot,

Matt Mirmak

P.S. I did not vote for Bush.

Well, I will weigh in with my two cents, for what it is worth. I was utterly stunned this morning to flip the news on - only to learn that M36 passed - in this supposedly Democratic state....Kerry won here - it did not occur to me that 36 would (I can't use the 'w' word here, because frankly, the entire state lost, yet WE haven't realized that yet) be accepted! That hurt more than having '4 more' win....but not by much.
The gay/lesbian couples I know - behave in many ways better than some of the hetero couples that I know.....in fact many of us could follow the commitment level leads that I have witnessed. I was surrounded by people today truly saddened by the lack of flexible thinking that much of our state now apparently has caught......I still can't put my brain around how one can vote for a Democratic President and then mark their ballot with a "Yes" next to M-36....
As one of my instructors said earlier today....Costa Rica is looking pretty good! I am not feeling like a proud American today.....too many non-Americans are dying or will die or will be left behind because of what our fellow countrypeople did on Nov 2, 2004.

Unfortunately I can't hold my breath for the next 4 years. I will however pass along the message written on the blackboard from the Globalization class....."Don't just mourn today go out and organize"
The world watched the process today of a free country, but I don't feel very free at the moment.....I hope that will come back in time.

Thanks Rowan for allowing us this opportunity to emote.....Blessings to you both!

I would second the motion for civil dialogue. However, I don't think that telling the truth about a group that has absconded with the nation, and actively suppresses democracy is either uncivil or unpatriotic. I also am not convinced that Kerry would have been a major improvement as he did his share of covering and dodging, but I was looking forward to pushing as much transparency from him as I have from those currently holding the reins of power.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
~Martin Luther King, Jr.

From Bill, taken from What You Won't Hear on TV Today by Howard Dean

To Matt,

First of all, welcome. But this particular thread was opened for "venting." Therefore your parental tongue-lashing tended to turn me off. How do you propose having a "civil" political discourse with opposing ideologies, which have serious repercussions on people's lives, without divisiveness? I happen to think it is much healthier to blow off steam with written words than it is via other actions, and indicting people for their own brand of passionate discourse seems unfair.

The nation is divided because of a fundamental difference in the current definition of "democracy," (among other things) and comparing decorum from the Victorian 1860's to now is moot. The nation is divided because there are serious inequalities and vastly divergent interpretations of government--the egg does not come before the laying chicken. I believe argument arises from divisive opinions, not vice-versa.

Additionally you ironically use a quote from Thomas Jefferson, but Matt, the man was reputed to have raging tirades when discussing politics, and if you examine the meaning of your quote it indicates resistance to tyranny, which I would argue has been enacted by a dishonest administration. People who are passionate about their lives and inequalities get emotional, and what happened during this election, the voter turnout, the grass-roots efforts, the passionate commitment to ideals was something to be excited about, not chastised for.

To the forum:

Sent to me by a friend today: "What good fortune for governments that the people do not think."--Adolph Hitler

Stray thoughts.

-The "Pottery Barn rule" applies to more than one country. Mister "uniter not a divider" has broken the US (in several senses) and now he owns it. I don't foresee this administration leaving within a decade.

-Response to Matt Mirmak. This sounds like a lot of issues in one post. I think we are all agreed on our opposition to attempts to deny people the right to vote, and our opposition to distortions of the truth, or concealment of relevant information. We may disagree about whether it is okay to call liars and criminals liars and criminals or whether we should phrase it differently. We probably agree in opposing the "elitism" of the two major parties, in the sense that they 1. serve large corporations and wealthy people almost exclusively, and 2. ridicule any political activity not done under their own auspices, and use every method they can think of to squash third parties and independent candidates. I think we can agree that this is illegitimate. We may disagree about how often, if ever, it is okay to say "a person who is thinking clearly cannot hold political position X"; I could see that being called "elitism" too. One more thing--I would warn against equating liberals with Democrats or conservatives with Republicans. The Democratic leadership has not been "liberal" or "left-wing" for a long time, if it ever was, and the Republican leadership has made a major break from traditional conservatism, especially in its foreign policy.

-I'm thinking we have the public education system to blame for the current situation. Both major parties accept as an unquestioned premise the goodness and the necessity of something resembling our current compulsory 12-year system. If you ask whether the public school system is beneficial people act as though you had asked whether it was beneficial for children to learn. But what children learn in school--what sticks with them--is primarily things like:
A. Your time is not your own.
B. Sit down and shut up.
C. Listen to the authority figure.
D. Repeat what the authority figure says.
This helps to soften people up for the mass media, which in turn deliver them wholesale to the right wing. I know I'm oversimplifying, but I think this is a neglected part of the problem.

-Re: the gay marriage fiasco. This is probably absurd, but I am wondering whether there is any chance of banning straight marriage, or rather getting the government to say that marriage is none of its business and has no legal status any more. I am seeing various groups that would have one ideological reason or another to get behind this, including several that wouldn't necessarily approve of gay marriage, but I'm thinking the average married person would oppose it for practical reasons anyway, so it would go down in flames.

-I hope Bush knows that if he reinstitutes the draft, someone is going to shoot him.

To Pam,

I am glad you are disgusted by my "tongue lashing." The problem with many people in society today is that they do not stand by what they say anymore for they feel they have to appease everyone and apologize for all of their actions in lieu of offending others. Or the fact that they are very thin skinned when it comes to others expressing dissenting opinions from their own. Like I had stated before, people in this country used to have some civility when it came to debating opposing points of views. The ugliness displayed by the Lester Maddoxes and Bull Connors of the world back in the 50s and 60s was an episode we hoped would never rear its ugly head in our history. Unfortunately it has now unveiled itself in the form of three piece suited "challengers" at the polls. And why had this ugliness emerged (or re-emerged)? Because the lust and desire for ABSOLUTE power over the wills of many have clouded the eyes and vision of not only the political elites, but their knee jerk, amen corner of supporters in the guise of several members of the "Christian" clergy, the so called supporters of the "public interest," and any other fringe or extremist group from either side of the spectrum that you can insert in here. The problem with the whole system today is you have two distinct sides who wish to impose their wills and agendas upon others while seeking to quash debate and dissent. They will go to any length necessary to preserve their perverted and dangerous agendas by performing dirty tricks and smear campaigns upon one another pitting people against each other. In return they justify their dirty tricks as "exposing the truth." And they wonder why "the people" are disgusted with the whole process? They wonder why young people are apathetic when it comes to voting? They wonder why some want to vomit when the word "politics" is mentioned? Look in the mirror people. We all played a part in this and no one is inncoent. The question I will still pose, without excuse or rancor, is where do we go from here?

Hi Matt,

I did not say I was "disgusted" (please don't misquote me, and why would you be glad?), merely turned off by what felt like a patriarchal chastisement in tone. Nevertheless you, of course, bring up some very good points in terms of a two party system, etc. I watched the Dems very carefully this election, particularly in contrast to the Karl Rove directed GOP. I heartily disagree that they stooped to same level of labeling (consistent use of the term "liberal" as if it has some inherently negative connotation), or pit bull tactics as the Republicans. The nastiest fight I have ever seen in politics was between Goli Ameri and David Wu, and the level that Goli Ameri stooped to was nauseating, while David Wu continually stuck directly to the issues.

I still don't see anything wrong with passionate discourse, and also would like to point out that people are multiplicitous ... they express themselves in myriad ways, and what might feel "uncivil" to you, might be considered engagement by others. It is rather ethnocentric to mandate a particular type of self-expression. As the child of a Mexican national and a German national, I've seen culture clash up close and personal. Putting restrictions in how people express themselves, the percieved "manners" they employ when selecting language, etc., is not only fruitless, but arrogant. Latin Americans typically use broader gestures and a heightened tone of voice which is often interpreted as excited, when they are, by their cultural standards, thereby showing interest.

I think the time for niceties is past. I, also, disagree with your assessment that the Dems are insisting on some sort of "ABSOLUTE" power. Their agenda--however clothed in a need to manuever within a system that the Republicans firmly admit is capitalism as king (and as long as campaigning costs millions, they need corporate backing to stay in the game)--is far more oriented to social issues than the Republicans.

Anyway, off to America's higher learning institution to try to find some reason to hope.

Just wrote a wonderful response to Matt ... but when I went to post it, I came up with a server error! :-(

I'll have to come back later and try to recreate it--too bad, I felt it was rather eloquent!

Sheesh, and there it is, I guess it just needed another post to push that one out! :-)

In response to the Hitler quote:

What can we do to make the people think?
Or better what can we do to make the people abandon the two party system that gives us these all or nothing ideologies?

It appears to me that everyone around the world is now aware that this nation is divided like the Hatfields and McCoys. Maybe there is hope that we can meld ideas together to make the whole work. As I have learned in Rowan's classes, there is more than one right way to live. The world must be open to diversity. That is the whole point of being free, is it not?

In response to the Hitler quote:

What can we do to make the people think?
Or better what can we do to make the people abandon the two party system that gives us these all or nothing ideologies?

It appears to me that everyone around the world is now aware that this nation is divided like the Hatfields and McCoys. Maybe there is hope that we can meld ideas together to make the whole work. As I have learned in Rowan's classes, there is more than one right way to live. The world must be open to diversity. That is the whole point of being free, is it not?

I'm on my way out the door (really!) but I just have to share an excerpt from something linked on Emily's Strangechord site. I found this "emotional" writing extremely resonant:

"Or at least that's the message I get from all the talk of "unity" and "healing" in the media. Now that the Democrats lost the political equivalent of the Super Bowl, I just need to shut up and put up. Anything less would just be typical liberal whining and bitterness. That I am afraid of what will happen to my country in the next four years is dismissed as just sore loser behavior. That I care about what will happen to my right to choose as a woman; the healthcare I can afford; the air I breathe; the soldiers I've spoken to – all this is just partisan obstinacy?

James Carville says that if liberals like me want to win, we need to learn how to talk to white guys in pickup trucks who think my gay friends are a sin against nature. But what could I possibly say to someone for whom a ban on abortion is the single most important issue in their life? There's no point in trying to "speak my values," if the folks I'm talking to think those values are simply wrong.

John Edwards was right in a way. There are two Americas: one that values tolerance, justice, and equality; the other that believes in Divine Will."

Is that being uncivil? Is that writer not politely adhering to the reality of this election? Maybe, but I'll take it over platitudes any day. Viva la passionate expression!!!

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It
both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has
closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will
offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

--William Shakespeare

____
We are surrounded by fear infested sheep as far as I can tell. Bigotry, selfish, greedy people who cannot think of anyone but themselves in their present state. Environmentally, Oregon was spit upon by a majority in return for secured jobs over trees and land. The insanity of propaganda which spewed forth for measure 34, 36, and 37 were enough to keep people frightened and reactionary. It's obvious.
The good news is, at least we know how many there are who don't see it our way ("our" being a progressive collective POV).
Presidentially, I think of what it must've been like when Nixon and Reagan ran supreme a 2nd time around, but with a MUCH LARGER ground of support for them. This time, not so. Dubya-do-wrong will have to answer to a large portion of the country that not only dislike him, but distrust and despise his policies. His danger is worn on his sleeve. A few steps back this election was, and given, internationally, JFK wasn't going to be a superhero, just a clone of policy for the most part... so now the 2008 election is the next step.We march onward. In the meantime, making it clear that a progressive movement is nowhere near quiet nor dead.

Thanks Craig, I love the Bards' quote.

EXCELLENT !

There are similar quotes in the Tao