These are superstitious barbarians that think a printed book has some mystic and divine powers. In this so-called modern space age there are still barbarians - unbelievable.

"The dead in the recent violence are not "insurgents," they are demonstrators." - yeah, that's why they kill innocent women, children, anyone.

Are you brain dead or what?

I am referring to those who have been killed in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan in the demonstrations (by US forces and the Uzbeki military)- not those who are victims of suicide bombers in Iraq. Sorry if you misunderstood, but since the violence I was discussing was the anti-American demonstrations, I thought it was clear.

What a beautiful, well-researched, well-stated post, Rowan. The eloquence and human compassion you always convey inspires me ... gives me hope that there are people who "get it," who understand the complexities of human relating that transcends artificial "national" boundaries.

To Justadog: You show, not only your ignorance of culture and intolerance of difference by pigeon-holing an entire segment of people into a term "barbarians" (not recognizing diversity in other cultures), but you also prove that you exhibit the very qualities that you condemn.

You brush off a complicated dilemma as if you've got some answer by labeling people protesting an invading force as unworthy. Furthermore, anyone who could come onto this site and throw out a "are you brain dead or what" comment, displays a certain mentality of knee-jerk opinionism which I suggests a lack of mental engagement. Enough said.

Updated the article with two new sources:
5/14/05 Raman, Asia Times, Afghan violence linked to Hizbut Tehrir

5/14/05 Bukharbayeva, AP, Human Rights Group: 200 Killed in Police Assault on Demonstrators in Uzbekistan

Now that Newsweek has admitted to the fact that the claim was baseless, do you want to retract any of that?

No, I do not, because this article has nothing to do with the validity of the accusation. It has to do with what the allegation has triggered. It has to do with cultural differences and explosive situations.

The Quran is a book, paper and ink. Not worth a human life - not even close. That's not an "American Consumer" or "Capitalist" perspective, its common sense to any intelligent and thoughtful human being.

And we don't just shoot and kill demonstrators, there has to be a distinct and real threat to the soldier's life for that to happen.

Are these Muslim extremists barbarians? DEFINITELY. Any group that determines that someone should be killed for mistreating paper and ink is definitely inferior, and therefore barbaric. That's not diversity at all; it's like saying that illiteracy is diversity. And as for "pigeon-holing" an entire culture...that's not what I see, we're pigeon holing those that believe a book is more important than a human life.

And, the insurgents are definitely responsible for the deaths of the innocent people killed in the demonstrations. Not only are they the root cause for the problems there, but they are the ones who inflamed the demonstrators for their own purposes.

As for protesting an invading force...well, my goodness, that's not what's happening at all...ah, too long of a subject to get into, just see "Invasion of Nazi Germany" and "World War II" for more insight into that subject...sheesh...

The key here is the fact that there is an "anti-american" movement. The words have been stated. Of course, the US media is going to deny any allegations; of course the US media is going to deny the "anti-american" sentiment. We must keep the "American Dream" alive or no one will buy consumable items. America is the greatest country in the world, remember?
I am not certain I like being numbered with those policies and actions I oppose. I fear the coming changes that may take my rights away in the name of "Homeland Security." I can only hope that the world realizes that America is divided (polarized as the news stations say it).
For the ignorant, how does it feel to be hated? Now the shoe is on the other foot, yet most are still in denial.
It has been my experience, when confronting someone with a diagnosable problem, that someone can get enraged with denial. Ever tell an alcoholic that he/she needs help and get an almost violent or completely violent response? Americans are addicted to power and a pride that has become arrogance. No other country is above us.
Once addicts get past the denial, they can face the issue more peacefully. Self reflection is not so easy for many people.

I truly do not understand why demonstrators are being characterized by a couple of the commenters as "barbarians." They are demonstrating - not killing. There is a HUGE difference. Further, why is there an assumption that the demonstrators are "extremists"?

Central to democracy is the right for the people to voice their grievances. Demonstrations are one way to do that. Does that mean that anyone who demonstrates (here or elsewhere) is a "extremist" and a "barbarian?"

I believe that the stereotypical comments are driven by a lack of information. Here is this report from the Washington Post - Witnesses Describe Uzbek Bloodshed:

The families of hundreds of people killed when troops opened fire to quell protests in eastern Uzbekistan buried their dead Sunday, as witnesses described the bloody mayhem that erupted Friday.

In a single incident in Andijon on Friday, witnesses said, soldiers fired on a crowd that included women and children as police begged them not to shoot.
...
A Russian news agency, meanwhile, reported that Uzbek troops had fired on civilians trying to flee into neighboring Kyrgyzstan to escape the violence in their homeland.

The barbarians being referred to (at least by me) are the individuals and groups who want to kill someone for essentially mistreating a book, whether they be "peaceful" demonstrators or not. No one should have been killed over this issue and no one is saying that's ok, with the possible exception of true self-defense.

And, I'm also referring to the United States in my comments, not some other democratic country, because I thought the discussion was about anti-American sentiments. I don't see that troops from the United States fired on any of the demonstrators in Uzbekistan.

The problem in cases like this are when armed groups, like the Hizb ut-Tahrir, use a peaceful crowd as a cover for shooting, and then point at the responding troops as though they started shooting at an unarmed crowd for no reason. That's barbaric too...

Another problem is whose reporting do you believe? That's a central issue here too...did Newsweek report the truth and back out because of the violence the article caused, or were they wrong to begin with? Which reports of the Uzbekistan shootings are accurate? I see in this forum that people just pick the story that fits into their view (which I guess includes me...) But, to want to kill someone over an unclear misuse of the Quaran is just ridiculous, and to try to force the US to turn anyone over by threatening us with a Jihad is beyond arrogance.

Kent State is 35 years old and alive and well. The American Flag is just a piece of cloth with colors, the Bible is just a book...how does that feel ?

Not sure what your point is, but it feels fine to me, actually. The Kent State killings were were a terrible atrocity that no one in the USA defends as being the right thing to do.

You can burn the flag and desecrate the Christian Holy Bible and it will definitely upset some folks, but they're not going to KILL you for it. Under Islamic law, desecration of the Quran is punishable by death. Who can defend that?

Just to be clear, I don't support anyone desecrating the Quran or any other religious icon or symbol from any religion. I feel that the United States is a country where freedom of religion is of paramount importance.

I would definitely oppose misuse of the Quran by the US govt, and would expect it to treat any religion with respect and dignity - even when interrogating prisoners. If indeed there was inappropriate use of the Quran, I would expect those responsible to apologize and be punished, but that punishment would be applied by the USA and would never even come close to the death penalty!! A fine, or community service would be appropriate...but death?? Come on!

Well, I was around when Kent State happened and I when I went to work, everybody was saying "It's about time they used live ammo on those commies" and I would argue a large percentage of the population agreed, at least behind closed doors. Further there are plenty of Americans that will kill you over the flag or the bible. Of course its absurd to kill over the destruction of any religious material, but it is a problem that is not confined to the "barbarians" in the middle east. However clumsy that was my point !!!

No one I ever knew agreed with the Kent State killings. But I'm sure there are those who did.

I would definitely agree that there are barbarians everywhere, even in the USA where I can supply many instances of that, but we were discussing a specific barbaric concept that mishandling or desecrating a book (the Quran) is something punishable by death.

And yeah, there may be Americans who would kill you over the flag or the bible (none that I know of, but just for the sake of argument...), but those people would be put in jail, not celebrated. The problem in the Middle East is that their GOVERNMENTS and RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES condone killing for desecrating a book. Can you even imagine the Pope or the President of the United States or the mayor of your city officially saying that someone should be killed for desecrating the holy bible? Nah, but in the ME, you have plenty of clerics and government officials calling for jihad or blood.

Actually, you and I do agree...it just isn't right to kill someone over mishandling of a religious tome. It's barbaric.

Bookworm,

You seem to have redefined the term "barbarian," adding qualifiers that the original poster did not. The use and posture of the poster was hardly thoughtful and did not show any understanding or intelligence about the complexities of that area of the world.

There are Muslim extremists--just as visions of our KKK, or even more recent marches of Neo-Nazis, might be portrayed in outside media as a substantial statement about the U.S. extremists--but they do not characterize an entire people. Muslims are NOT barbaric. I know Muslims from Somalia, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and Palestine who are wonderful, thoughtful, giving people. Therefore I will not accept a blanket judgment about Muslims without responding. It's ridiculous to lump an entire region of diverse people into one adjective.

The issue of this post was about peaceful demonstrators and what many of us here consider to be an occupying force which has privileged its own consumer interests over the lives of hundreds of thousands of people--many who are innocent. Additionally, it has been an historical reaction of the U.S. to take burning or stomping of our flag quite personally. Our responses to hostility aren't generally demonstrations, they are often aggressive military responses where people die.

One might look at the reasons our government condones KILLING and MILITARY ACTION, often (if not always) to further the commercial or resource interests of our country. Without understanding the history of the area, or having the objectivity to view the many dictatorial governments and actions that OUR government has supported, it seems quite hypocritical to me to take some moral high ground.

Additionally, I find it curious how every publication that reveals something ugly about this administration ends up retracting it under a smokescreen of "we must have been wrong."

Oh, and while we're exposing Newsweek magazine for a story that supposedly is false that has wreaked havoc, perhaps we should revisit those WMD's for a moment ...

Thank you for letting me make a comment. I am suppposed to be a "born-again" Christian, but am very improvable in this. Now, I think if you were to use a little girl as a human shield, this would bother a Christian MUCH more than if you held a Bible hostage and wiped feces on it, etc. We love people. The Bible is our guide, to love. WE value loving more than the Bible. The Bible is humble, a message that makes loving the main thing.
So, if you were to be a person who wanted to provoke or threaten and control me, by flushing or smearing a Bible...first, would be the priority that God wants me to care about YOU...to personally love you. THAT would be the number one thing...for a Christian.
And Jesus says those who live by the sword will perish by the sword, plus we have that wisdom is better than weapons of war.
In America, I understand there is a major humanitarian crisis > > > young women being brainwashed and psychologically terrorized into killing their own unborn with whom they could learn real love; they give in to such people who hold love and support hostage in order to force and torture them into becoming killers; men and women are now brainwashed into thinking they are supposed to be homosexual...possibly so certain elements can maintain a ready meat source for their fake-sexual pleasure that they try to use to keep themselves from feeling their deep-down awful-mess of their selfish nature; and children have a right to have parents who know how to love, and therefore learn to make their marriages work without getting all these divorces...such children are obviously being betrayed here, and THIS IS LEGAL...they have a right to really loving parents, and this right is NOT in the Constitution, and NOT enforced. How about Muslims? Do YOU enforce this?
And . . . while America has such a humanitarian crisis, essentially unchecked, how can "we" do things right in another country? We have people religious who can't tell the difference between a priest of God's love, as opposed to a pedophile predator. People have a right to religion which makes us able to tell the difference between someone worthy of trust and one who is such a no-show like one of those pedophile priests. So, even in a major religion, people are betrayed. Their religion has NOT done its job. And so, childrenn were exposed to such cruel nonsense...because even whole churches could have such evil and awful men in their pulpits, and "apparently" could not tell the difference.
Jesus makes you able to tell the difference between a person of real love and someone NOT real...I offer John 10:1-30.
So...given how so many in America are so incapable, even a danger and a torture to their own children...no way can "we" Americans do what is right for others in other countries. And "we" are willing to kill noncombatants in order to get at the "insurgents". Would you kill your own daughter or wife in order to get to an enemy? Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself. On we could go.
God bless you. Yes, in spite of all this, God bless you, and ME.

In the article above, you seem to be saying there would be a difference in how Moslems would view the desecration of a Qur'an, versus how "born again" people would view the desecration of a Bible.
Well, I am a "born again" person. And I would say, in any case, not all "born again" people are alike - - like how not all Moslems are the same. The Bible tells me to love God and to love all other people as myself. The Bible is humble. If someone flushed a Bible down a toilet or smeared feces on it, that Bible would be telling me to love and personally care about the one or ones doing that to the Bible.

Pamela,

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say. My comments were indeed with those qualifiers in place, and I probably did redefine the scope of JustaDog's usage of "barbarian" - I wasn't attempting to defend JustaDog's comments, merely making my own observations on the issue at hand. JustaDog wasn’t the most eloquent poster I’ve ever seen. It is the violent jihadist extremists of that religion or culture that I am referring to. The Muslim clerics who called for the extradition of the alleged "desecraters of the Quran" to be judged under Islamic law that provides for the death penalty of such desecration, and threatening jihad if they weren't turned over, strikes me as a bit barbaric - even the rioting seemed a little extreme - but maybe it's just me...

I have to disagree with your assessment about the issue of this post. The bulk of the article we're all commenting on is about "Desecrating the Qu'ran - Last Straw or Cultural Divide?" That's the basis of the current flap over the riots and killings and Newsweek. Certainly there are underlying issues around the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, but to me the key issue under discussion here was in fact the riots or demonstrations in response to the presumed desecration of the Quran. But, this may be my misunderstanding and I should probably post here no further. Before I quit, I'll just to pass along the following thoughts:

It is only an opinion that the US is an "occupying force which has privileged its own consumer interests" and this opinion is therefore open for discussion. This is in addition to the fact that the original article blurs the truth by inferring that the Uzbek riots had anything to do with the supposed desecration of the Quran, when in fact the Uzbek killings were unrelated.

Taking the moral high ground in this case is very justifiable. I mean, if we take all of history and all the actions of any and all peoples of this earth into account, then by your standards NO ONE can take any moral high ground at any time for any infraction. Now, I completely understand the history of the area and have full objectivity to viewing how and why our government supported dictators and oppressive regimes over the years, and I would be happy to discuss any or all of those incidents. However, that’s not what we’re discussing here. Two wrongs don’t make a right, so while there may be some hypocrisy in our government’s dealings with the world, that doesn’t mean I can’t take the high road when discussing this particular case.

I haven’t been aware of any flag-burners that were met with US military action that caused deaths; and if there have been any, then those actions would be abhorrent to me and to our nation.

As for blaming Newsweek, or saying that Muslims have the right to be so upset by the desecration of the Quran that they are justified in rioting and killing other human beings (other Muslims, I might add!), I found an article in the New York Times by Tom Friedman that puts a point on the issue very well:

This is a good example of what Bush and our government should have said in response to the riots and killings (instead of just blaming Newsweek for the deaths):

"Let me say first to all Muslims that desecrating anyone's holy book is utterly wrong. These allegations will be investigated, and any such behavior will be punished. That is how we Americans intend to look in the mirror. But we think the Arab-Muslim world must also look in the mirror when it comes to how it has been behaving toward an even worse crime than the desecration of God's words, and that is the desecration of God's creations. In reaction to an unsubstantiated Newsweek story, Muslims killed 16 other Muslims in Afghanistan in rioting, and no one has raised a peep - as if it were a totally logical reaction. That is wrong.

"In Iraq, where Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni Muslims are struggling to build a pluralistic new order, other Muslims, claiming to act in the name of Allah, are indiscriminately butchering people, without a word of condemnation coming from Muslim spiritual or political leaders. I don't understand a concept of the sacred that says a book is more sacred than a human life. A holy book, whether the Bible or the Koran, is only holy to the extent that it shapes human life and behavior.

"Look, Newsweek may have violated journalistic rules, but what jihadist terrorists are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan - blowing up innocent Muslims struggling to build an alternative society to dictatorship - surely destroys the Koran. They are the real enemies of Islam because they are depriving Muslims of a better future. From what I know of Islam, it teaches that you show reverence to God by showing reverence for his creations, not just his words. Why don't your spiritual leaders say that? I am asking, because I want to know."

Fortunately, a few courageous Arab intellectuals, such as Abderrahman al-Rashed, have asked such things. Writing in Wednesday's Saudi daily Asharq Al Awsat, he said: "When thousands in Afghanistan are concerned about a report in a magazine that does not reach them, written in a language they do not speak, leading them to protest in a manner unprecedented among other Islamic nations that do speak English, the matter is worth pursuing further: it tells us more about the dangers of propaganda and its exploitation by opposition groups than it does about spontaneous popular sentiments."

And a few days ago, a group of Iraqi journalists actually went to Jordan and got right in the face of Jordanian columnists and editors, demanding to know why they were treating Muslim mass murderers in Iraq like anticolonial war heroes. It's already changed the tone. That's the war of ideas.

The greatest respect we can show to Arabs and Muslims - and the best way to help Muslim progressives win the war of ideas - is to take them seriously and stop gazing at our own navels. That means demanding that they answer for their lies, hypocrisy and profane behavior, just as much as we must answer for ours.

Hi all,
I am an American Muslim. I read the article about the Quran being desecrated. Yes, I think it is wrong to do so, but i think it is wrong to desecrate any holy book weather it is the Bible, the Tora, the Quran etc.
One good example is that one day i was sitting in a chair and the news was on, something about Muslim extremists came on, my Dad said, "There you go. Islam is bad. There is your proof,"
So my Mom, my Dad and I got into a confrontation about it, and my mother handed me my grandmother's Bible, saying, "If you denounce your father and my religion, throw that book on the floor ans step on it."
However, I did not do it.
So in conclusion, I think disrespecting any holy book is wrong.
I wouldn't go so far as to kill over it though.